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Examining the I AM of John 8:58

Taken (with notes )from here: https://christianpublishinghouse.co/2018/10/18/john-858-theological-bias-in-bible-translation/

John 8:58 is one of the most hotly debated verses in the Bible, so our investigation begins and ends here.

UASV ESV, LEB, HCSB, RSV NLV CEV
Jesus said to them, “Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came to beI have been in existence.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham wasI am.” Jesus said to them, “For sure, I tell you, before Abraham was bornI was and am and always will be! Jesus answered, “I tell you for certain that even before Abraham wasI was, and I am.”
NLT NAB TEV, GNT NASB, ASV
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even bornI Am! Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to beI AM.” “I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born‘I AM’.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was bornI am.”
John 8:58 American Translation (AT) Jesus said to them, “I tell you, I existed beforeAbraham was born!

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A Statistical Comparison of the Occurrences of the word “Father” used for God, between the Four Canonical Gospels.

Professor of New Testament studies, James D. G. Dunn, in his book The Evidence For Jesus gives a statistical table showing how the early church remembered only a very few occasions in which Jesus spoke of God as ‘Father’ (just 3 such utterances in Mark). Yet in the later gospels (especially Matthew and John) we can see a huge inflation and expansion of the number of such sayings.

It is fair to conclude that we cannot take John’s reported testimony on this point as firm evidence of what Jesus actually said about himself. It represents a much later theological development.

God = Father, Not Son

Malachi 2:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

1 Corinthians 8:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

References Georg Kaplin:

Jesus and the Shema

HebrewSh’ma Yisra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.

Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

[John 8:57] Refuting the Idea that Jesus and Abraham met in Genesis 18

Let’s examine how the Jews twisted/perverted the words of Jesus in John 8:56:. Unfortunately Trinitarians are gullible enough to believe what the Jews were saying, and ended up equating the Angel in Genesis 18 to Jesus.

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[John 8:56] “My Day” does it refer to the Plains of Mamre or in the Future? (Differences in Biblical Commentaries)

Many Christians try to show the divinity of Christ, by equating him with the figure in Genesis 18 , ANGEL OF THE LORD. They refer to John 8:56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”, and in particular the wording “MY DAY“. Let us examine the different interpretations of Biblical commentors on this issue:

BLUE = Future
RED=Plains of Mamre

To conclude here, you will see that the MAJORITY of commentaries are referring to a FUTURE observance of Christ, as opposed to Jesus coming down in human form, in Genesis 18.

But as usual in John 8:57 , the Jews twisted the words of  Jesus and the Trinitarian Christians are gullible enough to accept their reasoning. In the next post we will see how commentators have understood the Jews were in-fact twisting or misinterpreting what Jesus was saying.

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Archbishop of Canterbury: ‘Jesus did NOT claim to be God’

Taken from here: https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/11/22/41936/

Michael Ramsey (1904 – 1988) was the 100th Archbishop of Canterbury. He was appointed on 31 May 1961 and held the office until 1974, having previously been the Bishop of Durham and the Archbishop of York. He was known as a theologian, educator, and advocate of Christian unity. The former Archbishop of Canterbury informs us that Jesus did not claim deity for himself. Most NT scholars would agree in my experience. The book is Jesus and the Living Past (published by Oxford University Press, 1980).

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Every Occurrence of Proskuneó-προσκυνέω in the LXX (Greek Old Testament) and the New Testament

APOLOGIZES, THIS IS NOT A COMPREHENSIVE LIST, AND IS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING EDITED, BUT THERE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR THE POINT TO BE MADE. (It seems I have only searched for one form of the word, and many other forms of it exist)


Just to remind the readers; in a previous post we asked the question: “Does Worship actually mean Worship in the New Testament?”

Now we will approach this question from a different angle by examining every occurrence of this Greek word, Proskuneó/ προσκυνέω(G4352) in the LXX (Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament)  and the New Testament.

Below I have BLUED  all occurrences of the word where it is applied in the context of praising/bowing/reverence etc; and I have REDED all occurrences of the word where it actually means WORSHIP; as in the English sense of Worshiping something/someone like God, whether it be actually God, or false gods.

I have also GREENED instances where it refers to Jesus , as to be fair to our Christian readers and not impose my theological leanings from the get-go.

I will now summarize my research/conclusion here (so you don’t have to scroll all the way down 🙂

Let us recall that THIS WHOLE EXERCISE, is being done to address the argument that “Jesus is God, because he was worshiped“. If we are to assume that all occurrences of the word, Proskuneó/ προσκυνέω(G4352), must imply WORSHIP and not general reverence , then we would have no choice but to believe in the following:

FROM THE LXX

Genesis 33:6 -Esau is God.

Genesis 33:7-Esau is God.

Genesis 37:7-Sheaf is God.

Genesis 42:6 -Joseph is God.

Genesis 43:28 -Joseph is God.

Genesis 48:12- Jacob is God

1 Chronicles 29:20 -David and God are being worshipped at the SAME TIME.

2 Chronicles 24:17- King Joash  is God.

THEN THE NT:

Rev 3:9- Christians are God.

In conclusion, the argument that “Jesus is God because he is accepting Worship” can not be used as a proof of his so-called divinity.  If so , you have opened up the trinity to a pantheon of gods. Now you may argue that most of these instances are from the LXX. Fine, however JUST ONE instance from Rev 3:9 is good enough to show that you can not apply the meaning of ACTUAL WORSHIP universally. If you did, then you would have to agree that God is going to make the Jews WORSHIP the Christians as God.

And so ends a long strenuous exercise in examining the word , Proskuneó/ προσκυνέω(G4352) within in the LXX and the NT.

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Sir Johann David Michaelis on John 20:28

Johann David Michaelis (27 February 1717 – 22 August 1791), a famous and eloquent Prussian biblical scholar and teacher, was a member of a family which had the chief part in maintaining that solid discipline in Hebrew and the cognate languages which distinguished the University of Halle in the period of Pietism. He was a member of the Göttingen School of History.

His remarks on John 20:28 :

“I do not affirm that Thomas passed all at once from the extreme of doubt to the highest degree of faith, and acknowledged Christ to be the true God. This appears to me too much for the then existing knowledge of the disciples; and we have no intimation that they recognized the divine nature of Christ before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I am therefore inclined to understand this expression, which broke out in the height of his astonishment, in a figurative sense, denoting only “whom I shall ever reverence in the highest degree”…Or a person raised from the dead might be regarded as a divinity; for the word God is not always used in the strict doctrinal sense” 

Taken from:

The Scripture Testimony to the Messiah: An Inquiry with a View to a Satisfactory Determination of the Doctrine Taught in the Holy Scriptures Concerning the Person of Christ, Volume 2 By John Pye Smith

The Subtle Biblical Manipulation of Luke 3:22 (Begotten like David?)

Luke 3:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Above I have posted the reading found in the common Bibles we have today. However, the wording is slightly different in the OLDEST MANUSCRIPT that contains the same verse(Codex Bezae):

Inline image 1

You are my son. Today I have BEGOTTEN you

 

The following rendition has been confirmed and attested by the Church Father, Justin Martyr:

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