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Did Moses believe in and worship the Trinity?

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Any takers….

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118 Comments

  1. Shad says:

    Ever heard of the “Two Powers in Heaven Heresy”? I would recommend James McGrath’s take on it, i couldn’t find a preview on Google Books but i think you would be interesting to read his perspective on Alan Segal’s thesis…

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Shad says:

    or maybe i can send you screenshots of the Chapter via Email…give me your Email address if you want the screenshots… Aight?

    Like

  3. In logical discourse, we should avoid ‘Red Herring’ fallacies. Let us remind ourselves what this fallacy is : “The red herring is as much a debate tactic as it is a logical fallacy. It is a fallacy of distraction, and is committed when a listener attempts to divert an arguer from his argument by introducing another topic.”

    ——————————————————————————————

    So lets get back to topic, step by step. It seems we are jumping around.

    Did Moses tell the Children of Israel to go and worship the Father, Son and Holy Ghostt? I am not asking whether the doctrine of the trinity can be derived from the OT ( we will get to that ). But this is my first question. Let me repeat the question in capitals : DID MOSES TELL THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL TO WORSHIP A TRIUNE GOD? If he did, WHERE?

    This is my first question, my second question will be where can I find the concept of the trinity, but FIRST we will deal with that before getting into that question.

    Step by step, will benefit me , you and the readers……

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    • I already gave you the answer isn’t the Tora written by Moses, so why does Moses write spirit of God what does it mean and why does he use the word us and we. This is whey Bible is clear with the word “ECHAD” which means unification of two becoming one. So, yes Moses did teach about Trinity now answer how many creators are there in Quran and why Allaha uses plural. So, you answer mine and i will answer yours don’t run.

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      • One step, relax. We can talk about the Qur’an, but I thought you wanted to preach your religion to me, I am confused as to why this defensive mechanism. Pick another post about Islam, and we can talk about that there. But over here, let’s stick to the topic at hand.

        I have a question about plurality, lets do some simple math:
        Is 1 a plurality?
        Is 2 a plurality?
        Is 3 a plurality?
        Is 4 a plurality?
        Is 5 a plurality?

        ..
        Is INFINITY a plurality?

        Please answer and then I can make my point.

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  4. What do you mean what is this maths, can’t you quote me Bible, why don’t you answer from Bible see how you are changing topic what is maths going to do. I thought you are discussing on theology and not on Maths if it is so then go and discuss with Einstein or Newton. Why waste your time and mine. So, refute from Bible.and if it is satisfactory then lets question your Quran why can’t you reply from your own Quran are you shaking

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  5. We have the it is not plural but unification two becoming one in case of Adam and Eve thsi is why in Genesis 5:2 Adam and Eve are referred has man and the same Echad is use which is used in Deut 6:4. So, when we connect the dots we find out that Yahweh God, spirit are unified this is why Moses was very clear using the Echad. Now why Allah is the best of the creators who are these creators and how many in total. So, definition of plurality perfectly fits with Quranic theology and Bible has no such errors. Now answer

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    • ok unification, fine. Another question

      Can two become unified as one?
      Can three become unified as one?
      Can 4 become unified as one?
      Can 5 become unified as one?
      ,,,,
      can INFINITY be unified as one?

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  6. Definitely it is possible for Yahweh God, his spirit and his word (Jn 1:1). But why are you not defending your theology. Do you have the answers for your Quran.

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    • I told you already if you want to talk about Qur’an ,pick another post. We agreed to talk about this , now your bringing up a red herring.

      Again please answer my questions, I will pose them again:

      Can two become unified as one?
      Can three become unified as one?
      Can 4 become unified as one?
      Can 5 become unified as one?
      ,,,,
      can INFINITY be unified as one?

      Please answers Yes or No, for each one.

      Ty

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  7. Look i gave you the answer from Bible you are asking a mathematics question and want a theological answer that cannot happen. Ask a theological question and i will give you a theological answer, and i don’t care which post is it i am questioning so the questions is important not the post or which platform. if you do not have your own Quranic answer then go read your own scriptures and then come back to defend your pagan religion. and yes the simple answer is yes according to theological concept what more. if you don’t have any more question and just bringing the same question then go get lost. I dealt with atheist and Muslims like you, Muslims will never answer but like to ask question. this is why when Christians of Najran came to debate with Muhammad he was helpless. So, i can understand from where you Muslim come. And my 1st question still hangs the name of your prophet. So if you cannot refute my claim that is not my problem but yours.

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    • Finally thank you. So let me get to the point. As much as a Trinity is possible using your logic, so is a duality, quadrality….. HINDUISM, since they believe that everything is part of God. So my next question is where is this plurality ior unification being restricted to three?

      And with that, I go to sleep. Good night.

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      • you are debating Christian i don care what Hindus believe so that is nonsense don’t bring any other religion if do the same like if you are sunni should i praise shia or vice versa. So, now you are bringing red herring. Now for three i already gave you example such has Gen 19:24 and about Echad which you did not address because you do not know how to refute. Yes God can be more than 3 but since Bible talks only about three then we should also accept it. But has a Christian i do not limit my Yahweh God he can come anytime and can take any form.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Wait, did you just say :

          “Yes God can be more than 3 ” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          WOW. This is BLASPHEMY. I am not sure if your catholic or protestant.
          If your CATHOLIC , then your own Thomas Aquinas contradicts you:

          “There cannot be more than three persons in God. ”
          -Excerpt from: LIGHT OF FAITH, The Compendium of Theology

          So according to Catholicism, your a blasphemer ! !!!!!

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  8. *COMMENT EDITED FOR RUDE AND ABUSIVE LANGUAGE*

    I really like rainbows and unicorns. They are sooooo pretty.

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  9. Thank you for returning to some level of civility.

    I can address all of these questions you have regarding Islam. But not here as we are trying to stick to one topic, and we do not want to fall into red herrings, which I find is constantly being done. Now I am not going to accuse you, that you are hiding from the truth through your constant evasion of questions. I would never accuse you of that. But other readers may get that impression. So to protect your honour sir, please I beseech you , do not engage in red herrings. stick to a topic.

    Now if you want to talk about a different topic, then please find an appropriate post on this blog. For example, I do not understand how you could have the GALL to even accuse us of this, since we all know that 40 Year-Old Isaac marries 3 year-old Rebecca in the Bible.
    https://islamicarchives.wordpress.com/2018/01/13/40-year-old-isaac-marries-3-year-old-rebecca-rabbinical-commentary/

    Now back to topic….

    “You did not address or refute of Echad”
    I did, if you believe there is a ‘unification’ or a ‘compound unity’, then the onus is on you to show me how that is restricted to three. So if we relied on your reasoning, as much as a trinity would be possible so would a duality, quadrality, a pentality…….HINDUISM, because they believe that everyone and everything is part of God in their pantheistic belief system. (Just to remind everyone, pantheism is the belief that all-things compose an all-encompassing, immanent god.)

    “…..and how about Gen19:24. .” There are many ways to answer this, but let’s go over the obvious,. I will bring up the verse for the benefit of the readers:

    “King James Bible
    Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;”

    The obvious question is that how many LORDs are there? All I see are two LORDS? I’m confused, i thought trinity was 3. Please do not confuse me, how is this verse an evidence of the trinity? Why would you bring this particular verse, and this verse alone to prove your doctrine?

    ————————————————————

    And please address the Thomas Aquinas quote. Are you a Catholic? If so, would you agree that you are a blasphemer?

    Thank you for your time.

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    • First of all, show me evidence from the Bible that Rebecca was 3 years old and if Rebecca is 3 or 30 we Christians do not follow Issac and Rebbeca so this is re hearings. Yes, 3 is not mentioned but there are Gods right and has i already said God can be in more than 3 but since Bible speaks about 3 so we should restrict ourselves to 3. I am not Catholic but Christian so please correct and till now why are you not showing the name of your prophet. You told me to change the platform i did so still you are incapable of showing the name of your prophet from the entire Quran its very strange that you are failing to defend your religion. And please don’t bring and Jews because you Muslims hate them the most and curse Jews and Christians in your mosques, so stop quoting someone whom your prophet hated. Here’s your answer about Muhammad marrying Aisha https://sunnah.com/search/?q=aisha+was+six and please address 65:4, don’t run and stop bringing red hearing quote me from Bible….

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      • “show me evidence from the Bible that Rebecca was 3 years old”
        -discuss on link

        “if Rebecca is 3 or 30 we Christians do not follow Issac and Rebbeca so this is re hearings”
        so Christians follow Jesus? Jesus never married , why are you getting married? 🙂

        “…. speaks about 3 so we should restrict ourselves to 3”
        – so you agree, Moses did not teach the trinity explicitly?

        As for your questions about Islam, please find relevant posts on this blog , and we can discuss it there.

        I’m confused , we MOVED to this whole thread because you wanted to preach your religion, now you want to discuss mine. I am confused.

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        • Can you show me from the mouth of Jesus that where Jesus said” has i am not married so that my followers or worshipers should not”. I challenge you to find me the Gospel, chapter and verse…just don’t come here throwing red hearing whereas i can prove that Muslims do exactly what Muhammad did and not what Allah said proving Muhammad is superior to Allah. Yes, Moses did not preach Trinity then what is the “word of Yahweh God’ that became flesh and dwelt among us (Jn 1:1)

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  10. “Yes, Moses did teach the Triune nature of God Almighty.”
    Vs
    “Yes, Moses did not preach Trinity ”

    Someone is contradicting themselves :p

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    • So, what is the word of God can you please explain that became flesh. I am not contradicting yes Moses taught the Triune nature Echad and Gen 19:24 but did not preach it these are two different meanings. And can you show me that where Jesus said not to marry. and what about islamic questions are you ashamed, offended or helpless to defend your religion.

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  11. If for a while we assume that Bible does not speak or teach or Moses did not talk about Trinity then why the no 3 is always mentioned in the Tora and not 4 or 5.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. Just to get to the exact verse, are you referring to this?

    Genesis 18:2
    Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Are you sure, you want to say Yes?

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    • 100% yes if no then you have to tell me why not and give me valid answer.

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      • https://islamicarchives.wordpress.com/2017/05/06/biblical-commentary-on-genesis-181-2/

        Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers

        The number three pointed also to the Trinity of Persons in the Godhead, and is therefore read by our Church as one of the lessons for Trinity Sunday. But we must be careful not to use it as a proof of this doctrine, lest the inference should be drawn of a personal appearance of the Father and of the Holy Ghost, which would savour of heretical impiety.

        Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible

        ,”the three Persons in the Trinity, in the shape of three men, appear to Abraham and dine with him, and eat the first flesh mentioned eaten in all the Scripture.’But to this may be objected, that the Father and the Holy Spirit are never said to appear in an human form, see John 5:37; or are ever called angels, as these are, Genesis 19:1; but they rather seem to be angels, as the Targums of Jonathan and Jerusalem call them, in the likeness of men, who were sent on three messages, as they suggest; one to bring the news of Sarah’s bearing Isaac; the other to deliver Lot; and the third to overthrow Sodom and Gomorrah; which is a much better sense than that of Ben Gersom, who takes them to be three prophets, and mentions the names of two of them, Shem and Heber; for two of these are expressly called angels, Genesis 19:1; and the apostle seems to refer to this history, Hebrews 13:2; in the Talmud they are said to be Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael

        Matthew Poole’s English Annotations on the Holy Bible

        Three men, as they seemed to be, though indeed they were angels in men’s shape.

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  14. Not to mention , I already answered you on that

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    • and i too gave you the proof…so please be kind enough to address i know you are hesitating to defend your religion but please answer. So are you convinced that Gen 18 speaks about Trinity.

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    • It seems red hearing is coming from you. Quoting Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible where New Testament is Quoted i could had also quoted NT but i limited myself, i could had quoted Early Church Fathers but i compressed myself. And then Talmud is quoted by the commentators well i was refuting Bible not Talmud. So, it is only proving that you are bringing sources who are quoting NT and Talmud and from last 3-4 days i was just stuck to Tora, if this is the case then should i appeal to NT. So, stop bringing sources that contradicts to your questions.

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      • Ok, so I will refrain from using your credible scholars.

        So back to the main question. If a man who knows nothing of Christianity, reads that three men appear to Abraham, he would understand the doctrine of the trinity? He wouldn’t need any outside source?

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        • Out side sources will be Pauline Letters and Early Church Fathers they are the commentators just has in Islam to explain Quran you need Tafsir writers and not Zakir Naik or Ahmed Deedat or Rahmatullah Kairanawi to explain the Quran.

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    • you brought commentators should i bring Early Church Fathers or Thomas of Aquinas whom you mentioned to prove my position. So, please stop bringing commentators and try to limit yourself and stick to Tora. Because has i recollect you questioned me that if Moses taught about Trinity which means i should answer only from the first 5 books of the Bible and no Talmud, NT nor Early Church Fathers. So, who is throwing red hearing who is getting diverted. So, get convinced or bring your authentic answer only from Tora

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      • I would be curious as to what Church Fathers have said about the verse. But then again you don’t have their writings like you don’t have the Bible. But manuscript evidence is a story for another day.

        I have asked you a question, I have refrained from referring to commentators. Please tell me :

        f a man who knows nothing of Christianity, reads that three men appear to Abraham, he would understand the doctrine of the trinity? He wouldn’t need any outside source?

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        • Hahah…shifting gears now you are itching to speak on manuscript evidence want to try out??? Gen 18 is very clear about Trinity read. and you will know it now you tell me what is wrong in Gen 18 and how it is not convincing you.

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  15. I mentioned that in passing, if you interpreted that as an attempt to change the topic, i apologize

    So when these three men appeared to Abraham, did they combine like Voltron and then Abraham understood the trinity?

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    • Yes, if you read Gen 18:3 Abraham address the three has “Lord” and “Lords” plural, so why did Abraham address 3 has one???

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      • Genesis 19:18 King James Bible
        And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

        Lot refers to two of the angels as Lord as well, without the third angel being present. Uh oh ….Lot has committed blasphemy ,he is worshipping a biniity, a two-person godhead.

        *sigh*

        Are you hearing yourself? Seriously, be honest with yourself. Something as HUGE as the trinity, something which if you don’t believe in you can end up in hell, is not clearly explained in the Old Testament. Your left with playing connect-the-dot theology with questionable grammar.

        I am not sure if your being intellectually dishonest or there is a serious misunderstanding that needs to be addressed. Are we defending our theology at all costs or are we trying to come to the truth?

        I don’t know what to say…..

        It’s time for me to sleep, Good Night !

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        • So, this is my question when two or three are there why Abraham and Lot addressed has one. And please stop giving lectures because right from day one you could not show the name of “your prophet from the Quran” and neither you were able to show where “Jesus said not to marry just like him” and other questions that i raised. It shows now you are in back foot caught off-guard and now coming to give lectures. Ok, if Trinity is Father Son and Holy Ghost then why Allah who is Almighty gives wrong theology of Trinity. This proves you Muslims sorry Muhammad and Allah did not know the doctrine of Trinity that the Christians believed. So, how can you call Allah almighty when he fails to know the doctrine of Trinity.

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      • Hey buddy, where did you go? Please address Numbers 23:19 at your earliest convenience. And check out my latest post :p

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  16. Regarding Genesis 18:2, can the father appear as a man on earth? No.

    Numbers 23:19
    “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

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    • Yes the text is very clear that God is not a man but the text does not say that God cannot become man. In fact God created man in his own image and likeness https://sunnah.com/muslim/53/32 so what is the image of God? It is the image of man….it is in your own Islamic sources so why doubt us….and right from the beginning i did not deny that God cannot become man he can become man and can take the form of anything proving that my God the true God Almighty, Yahweh God can enter into his own creation anytime.

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      • WOW……just WOW.

        How about this, would you at least agree that Moses did not teach the Children of Israel the concept of the trinity EXPLICITLY? This idea is derived and not explicitly stated.

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        • hahahah…then how come Moses write Lord when the three men appeared to Abraham and Abraham addressed them has Lord and similarly with Lot too. and what does Echad means. It seems you want to bet round the bush. you are now trying to go in circle

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  17. That isn’t clear cut. Moreover, how do we know the Father is one of the men, the Holy Spirit is another man, and Jesus is another man, Did they introduce themselves?

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    • If you read the entire Gen 18 it will be very clear that it is Yahweh God who is speaking, because it was only one person speaking and Gen 18:14 is very clear. So read the entire 18 and now why are u hesitating not to show the name of your prophet from Quran. Are you ashamed or cannot defend your religion. Give me the name….

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      • You didn’t answer the question, did they introduce themselves? Was Abraham able to figure out from the three men who was the father, son and Holy ghost? Please bring your evidence.

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        • Yes abraham did so because Gen 18:14 is very clear that it is possible for God Almighty to do everything. Abdul slave of Allaha. Why are you not answering my questions,,,,don’t worry i post links on your site. Enjoy reading

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  18. Classic Evasion,. Person A, Person B, Person C all met Abraham. How did Abraham know who is who?

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  19. Please don’t say “It could be”, it’s like your unsure if the trintiy is being taught at all.
    So please answer yes or no:

    “Let me understand this, just for clarification sake, the man who stayed with Abraham was God the Father ? And Jesus and the Holy Spirit went to Sodom and Gomorrah? Is that what you are trying to tell me?”

    Liked by 1 person

    • Abdul, i already answered yes now it is your time to prove if i am wrong. (Gen 18) is very clear https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18&version=NIV so why did abraham address them has Lord and not Lords and who appeared and how many were there. It seems you cannot answer, and yes Abduls like you or Ahmed Deedat, Zakir Naik or Shabbir ally will never address or answer. It’s more than a week and you are unable to give the name of your prophet from the Quran??? why so and Allaha is the best of the creators who are these creators it seems that you have more than (COMMENT EDITED FOR RUDE LANGUAGE) So, Abdul if you have any other questions then bring it or come with your evidence it seems that you cannot address Gen 18 you are trapped.

      Liked by 1 person

      • You have answered Yes, you have agreed that God the Father stayed with Abraham, while Jesus and the Holy Spirit went to Sodom and Gomorrah.

        Now in Genesis 19:24, who is in heaven and who is on earth?

        Genesis 19:24

        Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

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        • See you are getting it, this is what the Early Church Fathers taught about Trinity, but it is sad that Muhammad could not explain neither understand the Doctrine of Trinity of the Christians and gave the false Trinity. (COMMENT EDITED FOR BAD LANGUAGE) So, yes The five Books Tora is very clear of Trinity.

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  20. Your not answering the question, if God the Father is with Abraham, who is in heaven and who is on earth in Genesis 19:24?

    And please do not use rude or offensive language , often in desperation such tactics are used to distract from finding the truth.

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    • Did not God the Father left after he spoke to Abraham (Gen 18:33). And where is the bad word you Muslims curse Christians in your Mosques and now you are trying to be saint. Please stop this double standard, ok now answer you are not answering anything only asking questions. i really feel pity on you Abdul or Abdulla slave of allaha.

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      • Wait wait, you just agreed that God the Father was with Abraham while Jesus and the Holy Spirit went to Sodom and Gomorrah. So when the city was getting destroyed, which LORD was in heaven and which LORD was on earth in Genesis 19:24?

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        • Abdul i did not say God Almighty was with Abraham he left Abraham (Gen 18:33) read the verse, ok don’t put your words in the verse. This can be explained has this could be God Almighty and Holy Spirit because from the very beginning it was God Almighty and Holy Spirit who were working and creating the world.

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  21. You said YES when I asked you the question, don’t backtrack now.

    *sigh*

    Alright let’s go back to Genesis 19:24, where is Jesus in all of this?

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    • Jesus is one of them but not functioning at the movement the verses of (Gen 18) are very clear so who are those 3 men who appeared to Abraham and why did Abraham address them has Lord and not Lords. abdul it seems you are going in circle see this is what happens when abduls like you are cornered of anywhere now you explain why Abraham address them has Lord and not Lords.

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      • Please tell me where and what is Jesus doing in Genesis 19:24? You have brought this up as an evidence of the trinity, so please explain.

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        • Jesus is one in the union with God Almighty this is why when Moses writes Echad in (Deut6:4) he knew what he wrote not like surah 12:1-4 where allaha says he is “one of”. This shows allaha of the quran was very much confused about himself. Yes, Yahweh God is God, Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God but they are not Gods but God.

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  22. Red Herring…..please answer the question :

    “Please tell me where and what is Jesus doing in Genesis 19:24? You have brought this up as an evidence of the trinity, so please explain.”

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  23. I don’t follow, let me recap for myself, yourself and the readers on this blog:

    I ASKED: “Please tell me where and what is Jesus doing in Genesis 19:24? You have brought this up as an evidence of the trinity, so please explain.”

    You ANSWERED: “Gen 18 is before Gen 19 so you need to follow the sequence, so now you tell me who are there in Gen 18 the 3 men It seems you don’t want to answer ”

    That isn’t answering my question, please no red herrings. Give me location of Jesus and his actions in Genesis 19:24, and please don’t evade the question.

    Let me ask a simpler question, WHERE IS JESUS IN GENESIS 19:24? All I need is a location, I don’t need a long convoluted answer about Genesis 18.

    Let me repeat the question three times, as I know you like the number 3 a lot:

    WHERE IS JESUS IN GENESIS 19:24?
    WHERE IS JESUS IN GENESIS 19:24?
    WHERE IS JESUS IN GENESIS 19:24?

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  24. I’m asking you a very simple question, which requires a word or sentence at most.

    “WHERE IS JESUS IN GENESIS 19:24?”

    There seems to be some difficulty here and perhaps I have not done a good job asking the question, though God knows I am trying……

    Let me give you three options, and please pick one , since your having trouble answering the question. In Genesis 19:24, where is Jesus:

    (A) Jesus is on Earth
    (B) Jesus is in Heaven
    (C) Other

    Please provide your answer with either A or B or C. Your next response should ONLY be a one-letter response. Anything other than that will be interpreted as a failure to address the matter and will result in an immediate cessation of discourse on this issue of whether “Moses taught the Trinity in the OT”.

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    • Hold first answer me about Gen 18 it seems you are not here to debate but to ask questions Abdul answer Gen 18 i am not going to spare you. You did not answer about your fart religion and your prophet now you are jumping abdul answer Gen 18 1st who are thos three 3 men. Too much of dancing around now answer who are those 3 mens

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    • You are just like your prophet who will never answer you jumped to Gen 19 even without addressing Gen 18 cherry picking verses, answer abdul i know you don’t want to answer about your religion but since you want to ask question on Bible then answer Gen 18 i will not let you go. From the very 1st day you shifted gear ashamed and disgraced with filth of your cult not answering your religion and now you want to question me about my faith jumping from one verse to another.

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  25. Alright Sir, thank you for the discourse….it has been….interesting to say the least. I must respectfully sign out. I wish you all the best.

    Like

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