This is the continuation of a discussion with Nur-el-Masih Ben Haq, taken from here.

You said:
As a Christian, who was a Muslim, I know the Qur’an is largely ‘Biblical’. So, it is very logical for me to quote it to prove to my Muslim debate-mates that a part of the holy book of their religion–my former religion —Islam is supportive of a doctrine of my current religion, Christianity. That is why I quoted, along with the Qur’an, the corresponding Biblical verses which, I believe, are the primary sources.

Secondly, this divine declaration on Maryam is obviously akin to her imminent birth of Jesus Ruh’Allah and Kalimat’Allah which is clearly the greatest ever of all the births on Earth.

Says the Bible (Luke 1:28, 41-44, 48-49):
‘ The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are HIGHLY FAVOURED! The Lord is with you.” ’

(Luke 1:41-43)
“When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “BLESSED are you AMONG WOMEN, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”

Maryam concurred, “ (Luke 1:46-48) And Mary said, ’…from now on ALL GENERATION will call me blessed”

And correspondingly, says the Qur’an (3:42), “ O Mary! Allah has CHOSEN thee, and PURIFIED thee, and PREFERRED thee ABOVE ALL THE WOMEN OF CREATION”.

So, like I said, this declaration is a proof of Jesus’ birth being the GREATEST.

Thirdly, in Judith 13:18 you merely quoted Ozias ( Uzziah )
praising his daughter. You can say any exaggerated thing about your daughter, your son or your wife etc as a word of appreciation and encouragement. But that should be understood for what it is and should not be compared with divine declaration on Jesus, which was said by the Holy Spirit through Elizabeth and which the Qur’an, your religious book, concurred by reporting Allah as saying similar thing.

My Response:

I shall first address what you have said about the verse in Judith:

Judith was not Ozias Daughter. Ozias was the leader of the people and a prince. Do you make a habit of formulating opinions without the facts? One should study before one tries to teach such an important aspect of a religion. We are dealing with people’s souls I would hope you would exercise due care and take this seriously. Whether this is divinely decreed or not is of no consequence to my point; which is that the language has nothing to do with someone giving birth to a man-god. If we are to critically analyse the verses you cited nothing in them would give the first century Greek speaker the idea that Jesus was God, but rather that Mary was obviously chosen for a special purpose. What was this special purpose? This special purpose was to give birth to the promised Messiah. Neither Jew Christian nor Muslim reading of these verses should find anything man-god-like contained in these scriptures.

Now to your point of Mary being “highly Favoured” the same word is used in the Apocrypha (Specifically Wisdom of Sirach) and Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (Testiment of the Patriarchs) in none of these instances does this ever point to someone giving birth to a man-god. You may say well, Pseudepigrapha was not God inspired, however God used the common language of people to convey his messages and ideas, so this indeed gives us insight into what God was expressing. This word is however used else where in the New Testament in the following verse:

Eph 1:6 ESV to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

this is a verse that is referring to christians, are you now going to say Christian women will give birth to man-gods?–GOD FORBID!!!!

Your arguement can be summed up as follows:

Mary was favoured in giving birth, therefore we must conclude Jesus is God.

My Argument is as follows:

God said Mary was favoured for giving birth to the Messiah, therefore we must conclude it was an honour and was a GIFT from God (expecially considering that the word used for favoured means a gift unmeritously bestowed and bestowed only by God’s grace)

Taken from BBC World News:

A report from an American think-tank has estimated 1.57 billion Muslims populate the world – with 60% in Asia.

The report, by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, took three years to compile, with census data from 232 countries and territories.

It showed that 20% of Muslims lived in the Middle East and North Africa.

The data also showed that there were more Muslims in Germany than in Lebanon, and more in Russia than in Jordan and Libya together.

Surprise

Researchers analysed approximately 1,500 sources including census reports, demographic studies and general population surveys.

Senior researcher Brian Grim told CNN that the overall figure was a surprise and said: “Overall, the number is higher than I expected.”

MUSLIM POPULATION BY REGION Asia and the Pacific: 61.9% Middle East – North Africa: 20.1% Sub-Saharan Africa: 15.3% Europe: 2.4% Americas: 0.3%

The report, published on Wednesday, also found that Ethiopia has nearly as many Muslims as Afghanistan.

Amaney Jamal, an assistant professor of politics at Princeton University, told the AP news agency: “This whole idea that Muslims are Arabs and Arabs are Muslims is really just obliterated by this report.”

Instead the report found that more than 300 million Muslims live in countries where Islam was not the majority religion.

Of the total Muslim population, 10-13% are Shia Muslims and 87-90% are Sunni Muslims.

Most Shias live in Iran, Pakistan, India and Iraq.

Europe is home to 38 million Muslims – around 5% of its population with European Muslims making up slightly more than 2% of the world’s Muslim population.

More than half of the 4.6 million Muslims in the Americas live in the US – however they make up just 0.8% of the population there.

The Pew Forum has said the findings will lay the foundation for a forthcoming study that will look at how Muslim populations worldwide have grown and what they may look like in the future.

It also plans to compile figures for the other major world religions.

According to internet-based group, Adherents, there are currently 2.1 billion Christians, 900 million Hindus and 14 million Jews worldwide.

When I first read this on BBC World News, I was disappointed and assumed that Al-Azhar has lost all its crediblity. However IslamOnline has clarified the story, below. Shame on BBC for leaving out key details of the story.

Al-Azhar Bans Niqab in Girls Classes, Residence

By  IOL Staff

Tantawi said he is not against women covering their faces in the streets, work place or their homes. CAIRO – Al-Azhar, the highest seat of religious learning in the Sunni world, decided on Thursday, October 8, to ban niqab in all its affiliate girls-only schools, educational institutes and dormitories.”The Supreme Council of Al-Azhar has decided to ban students and teachers from wearing the niqab inside female-only classrooms,” said Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Sheikh Mohamed Sayyed Tantawi. Reading out from a written statement, he said niqab would not be allowed in schools where both the students and teachers are females. Tantawi added that the same rules would apply in university dormitories where the residents and the supervisors are also all females. During a visit to a school earlier this week, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Sheikh Mohamed Sayyed Tantawi ordered a school girl to remove her niqab, telling her the face-veil is “a tradition and has nothing to do with Islam.” The Muslim-majority country’s top religious authority also vowed to ban the niqab all schools linked to Al-Azhar. Established in 359 AH (971 CE), Al-Azhar mosque drew scholars from across the Muslim world and grew into a university, predating similar developments at Oxford University in London by more than a century.Al-Azhar, which means the “most flourishing and resplendent,” was named after Fatima Al-Zahraa, daughter of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The first courses at Al-Azhar were given in 975 CE and the first college was built 13 years later. Al-Azhar first admitted women students in 1961, albeit in separate classes. Also in 1961, subjects in engineering and medicine were added to classes on Shari`ah, the Noble Qur’an and the intricacies of Arabic language. Not Anti-Niqab The Supreme Council asserted that Al-Azhar does not oppose the niqab in the homes, streets or the work place. But Tantawi asserted that they are against over exaggerations. “Women cover their faces so as not to be seen by stranger men. But it makes no sense to use niqab in a women-only environment,” he contended. “Insistence on covering the face in the presence of women only is a form of extremism which Islam opposes.” Tantawi told the state television Tuesday that although he considers the niqab as a tradition, he does not oppose it and deals normally with women who cover their faces. The majority of Muslim scholars believe that a woman is not obliged to cover her face or hands. They believe that it is up to every woman to decide whether to take on the face-cover or not. Most Muslim women in Egypt wear the hijab, which is an obligatory code of dress in Islam, but an increase in women putting on the niqab has apparently alarmed the government. The ministry of religious endowments has recently distributed booklets in mosques against the practice. The Education Ministry has reportedly banned students who wear the niqab from being accepted in state-run Cairo University’s dormitory.

Taken from BBC World News:

In London’s historic “Inns of Court”, barristers practise law in the shadow of the distinctive medieval Temple Church. But does English law really owe a debt to Muslim law?

For some scholars, a historical connection to Islam is a “missing link” that explains why English common law is so different from classical Roman legal systems that hold sway across much of the rest of Europe.

It’s a controversial idea. Common law has inspired legal systems across the world. What’s more, calls for the UK to accommodate Islamic Sharia law have caused public outcry.

The first port of call when looking for an eastern link in the common law is London’s Inns of Court.

“You are now leaving London, and entering Jerusalem,” says Robin Griffith-Jones, the Master of the Temple Church, as he walks around its spectacular rotunda.

The church stands in the heart of the legal district and was built by the Knights Templar, the fierce order of monks-turned-warriors who fought Muslim armies in the Crusades.

London’s historic legal district, with its professional class of independent lawyers, has parallels with the way medieval Islamic law was organised.

In Sunni Islam there were four great schools of legal theory, which were often housed in “madrassas” around mosques. Scholars debated each other on obscure points of law, in much the same way as English barristers do.

There is a theory that the Templars modelled the Inns of Court on Muslim ideas. But Mr Griffith-Jones suggests it is pretty unlikely the Templars imported the madrassa system to England. They were suppressed after 1314 – yet lawyers only started congregating in the Inns of Court after the 1360s.

Perpetual endowment

This doesn’t necessarily rule out the Templars’ role altogether. Medieval Muslim centres of learning were governed under a special legal device called the “waqf” under which trustees guaranteed their independence.

In an oak-panelled room in Oxford, historian Dr Paul Brand explains the significance of the 1264 statute that Walter De Merton used to establish Merton College. He was a businessman with connections to the Knights Templar.

“You are now leaving London, and entering Jerusalem,” says Robin Griffith-Jones, the Master of the Temple Church, as he walks around its spectacular rotunda.

The church stands in the heart of the legal district and was built by the Knights Templar, the fierce order of monks-turned-warriors who fought Muslim armies in the Crusades.

London’s historic legal district, with its professional class of independent lawyers, has parallels with the way medieval Islamic law was organised.

In Sunni Islam there were four great schools of legal theory, which were often housed in “madrassas” around mosques. Scholars debated each other on obscure points of law, in much the same way as English barristers do.

There is a theory that the Templars modelled the Inns of Court on Muslim ideas. But Mr Griffith-Jones suggests it is pretty unlikely the Templars imported the madrassa system to England. They were suppressed after 1314 – yet lawyers only started congregating in the Inns of Court after the 1360s.

Perpetual endowment

This doesn’t necessarily rule out the Templars’ role altogether. Medieval Muslim centres of learning were governed under a special legal device called the “waqf” under which trustees guaranteed their independence.

In an oak-panelled room in Oxford, historian Dr Paul Brand explains the significance of the 1264 statute that Walter De Merton used to establish Merton College. He was a businessman with connections to the Knights Templar.

There is no definitive proof, because very few documents survive from the period. All we have is the stories of people like Thomas Brown – an Englishman who was part of the Sicilian government, where he was known in Arabic as “Qaid Brun”.

He later returned to England and worked for the king during the period when common law came into being.

There is proof he brought Islamic knowledge back to England, especially in mathematics. But no particular proof he brought legal concepts.

There are clear parallels between Islamic legal history and English law, but unless new historical evidence comes to light, the link remains unproven.

I just thought this story of Elisha the prophet of God was interesting and thought I would share this for people who are confronted by Haters who try to say Muhammed “killed innocent people who did not want to follow Islam or mocked him” we have all heard the lies over and over so I shan’t regurgitate them here. Here the Prophet Elisha has 42 children torn apart for calling him bald and mocking him

So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake. And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

2 Kings 2:22-25 KJVR

I was reading through Islamic and non-islamic sites doing research as usual when I happened upon a youtube video. As I turned on the video I was met by the most insufferable of voices, This voice (if it be proper to call the vile shrieks a voice) attempted, without avail, to tell me that my God was a leg. He cited the following ayah from the Quran to prove this:

The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able, Quran 68:42

According to hadiths the portion emphasised refers to God yet as is normally the case with people of his caliber the person propagating his “Leg-God” doctrine abandons all logic and sensibility for his perverse interpretation. This is an idiom and one of my favourite Tafsirs proves this very point:

Mention, the day when the shank is bared (an expression denoting the severity of the predicament during the reckoning and the requital on the Day of Resurrection: one says kashafati’l-harbu ‘an sāqin, ‘the war has bared its shank’, to mean that it has intensified) Tafsir Al-Jalalayn

I have seen this unsavoury fellow use and pervert Tafsirs yet when it comes to this particular ayah he seems to avoid the tafsirs as much as he avoids the Truth.

Same Idea is seen in the book of Ezekiel in the Old Testament:

Therefore thou shalt set thy face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it. Ezekiel 4:7 KJV

This is nothing more than an idiom meaning that one is preparing to strike or preparing for battle.

But lets see what his scriptures say about God (through I doubt he is a true Christian as his fruits seem to suggest otherwise and his tactics seem to be in direct opposition to the Teachings of Prophets Jesus)

The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. Isa 52:10 KJVA

Now by his logic (if it be proper to call his madness a form of logic) his God is an arm. But being bigger people than him we should realize that this is an idiom. Hebrew is a very concrete language like most semitic languages are. Eastern languages tend to avoid abstract ideas for things that one can see. For instance one can not actually see the idea or concept “generosity” (though one can see the result which is giving to people less fortunate). The Hebrews did not have a word for generosity but rather used the concrete idea (an idea u can see) a “good eye.” The reason they used this was because if one “sees” that a person is in need with their eye and recognizes their plight and suffering there eye is “good” as opposed to someone who has a bad eye who ignores the plight as though he does not see it.

Obviously this person with a “bad eye” for scripture needs to worry about his “arm-God’s” writings before he condemns anothers book.

There has been much intrigue after my article on the idea of non-Jewish prophets in the Bible. The Jews were quite open to the idea of prophets being sent to even non-Jewish nations as I have already demonstrated. But let us look and critically examine what we do know of these seven Gentile prophets that are explicitely mentioned by name in the Talmud (Baba Bathra 15b).

(Job):

We are all familiar with prophet Job (ayyub) and his story of steadfast faith but he was not of the stock of Jacob (Yaqub) According to the Talmud he was from the Land of Edom, It is also believed by the rabbis of the Talmud that moses wrote the book of Job. This interesting note is placed at the end of the book of Job in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament (The Bible Prophet Jesus used and preffered over the Hebrew Text which had become so perverse):

And Job died, an old man and full of days: and it is written that he will rise again with those whom the Lord raises up. This man is described in the Syriac book as living in the land of Ausis, on the borders of Idumea and Arabia: and his name before was Jobab; (42:17C) and having taken an Arabian wife, he begot a son whose name was Ennon. And he himself was the son of his father Zare, one of the sons of Esau, and of his mother Bosorrha, so that he was the fifth from Abraam. (Job 42:17 LXX)

(Eliphaz the Temanite) :

This prophet is mentioned in the Book of Job and is from the stock of Edom he is called a Temanite after the son of Esau whose name was Teman in Genesis 36.

And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz.Gen 36:11 KJV

Its interesting to note that Eliphaz also seems to be a family name.

(Bildad the Shuhite):

Another Prophet mentioned in the book of Job who was a descendent of Keturah the wife of Abraham( Who according to Rashi, identifies Keturah with Hagar the mother of Ishmael showing that Hagar produced a prophetic stock).His name Patronym is taken from Shuah the son of Abraham and Keturah.

Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. Gen 25:1-2 KJVA

Josephus says the following about the sons of Keturah and their settlings in Arabia:

Now, for all these sons and grandsons, Abraham contrived to settle them in colonies; and they took possession of Troglodytis (the area along both sides of the Red sea), and the country of Arabia the Happy (the Greater Part of Arabia as far as Yemen), as far as it reaches to the Red Sea. Josephus Antiquities of the Jews 1.15.1

(Zophar the Naamathite):

A friend of Prophet Job who is identified with a place in Arabia called Naamah. The Septuagint Identifies him with a group of people called Minaeans ( a rich, Yemeni people), of whom he was called their king (Job 2:11).

(Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite):

This prophet is mentioned in the book of Job and was a Descendant of Nahor the brother of Abraham. (see Genesis 22)

(Balaam and his Father):

The Person who was originally sent to Curse the Children of Yacub but was later given revelations from God to send blessings on them, little is mentioned of his father though the Talmud asserts he was a prophet also.

It’s interesting to note that almost all of these prophets are Arabs who lived in Arabia, some were descendents through Keturah (who may be Hagar according to Rashi), Esau, and a nephew of Abraham. This is in no way a comprehensive list and according to the Talmud there were many other but these are the ones just named in the Hebrew Old Testament. Even Rashi states in his commentary on the Tanakh that even the gentiles were sent prophets so the gentile nations should not have an excuse to say, “Had we had prophets we would have repented.(Rashi’s commentary on Numbers 22:5)” The lies that someone can not be a prophet because they are not Jewish can now be laid to rest.

Thus far you have permission to speak, thenceforward you have not permission to speak, for so it is written in the Book of Ben Sirah: Seek not things that are too hard for thee, and search not things that are hidden from thee. The things that have been permitted  thee, think thereupon; thou hast no business with6 the things that are secret.

Raba [again] said to Rabbah b. Mari: Whence can be derived the popular saying, ‘A bad palm will usually make its way to a grove of barren trees’? — He replied: This matter was written in the Pentateuch [Torah], repeated in the Prophets[Nevi'im] , mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa [Ketuvim], and also learnt in a Mishnah and taught in a Baraitha: It is stated in the Pentateuch as written, So Esau went unto Ishmael; repeated in the prophets, as written, And there gathered themselves to Jephthah idle men and they went out with him; mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa [Ketuvim], as written: Every fowl dwells near its kind and man near his equal;

Another article from my dear friend ‘Abdullah’:

I find it truly amazing at times how people do not know their own religions beliefs yet feel fit to criticize the religious beliefs of others. Many times a person will attack a religion such as Islam for a trivial matter yet do not know that their religion may teach the same thing! The Bible is quite clear to Jews and Christians that a equal standard should be applied to all things, and that if one says that a certain practise make a religion false that same standard should be applied to their religion as well. Let us start off by looking at what the Bible says about the standards we use in the following verse:

A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight. Proverbs 11:1 KJV

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure. Leviticus 19:35 KJV

A double standard of weights and measures- both are disgusting to the LORD. Proverbs 20:10 GWT

Shall I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with the bag of deceitful weights? Micah 6:11 KJVA

Jesus in the New Testament emphasized this message many times to demonstrate that a double standard is not from God and even illuminated us to the fact that the standard that we use for others will be the standard that God will use for us when he judges us.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Matthew 7:1-3 KJVA

Paul in the his epistles to the Corinthians specifically tells the Christian congregation to worry about themselves and perfect themselves before they look for the imperfection in non-christians.

In my previous letter I said, “Don’t mix with the immoral.” I didn’t mean, of course, that you were to have no contact at all with the immoral of this world, nor with any cheats or thieves or idolaters – for that would mean going out of the world altogether! But in this letter I tell you not to associate with any professing Christian who is known to be an impure man or a swindler, an idolater, a man with a foul tongue, a drunkard or a thief. My instruction is: “Don’t even eat with such a man.” Those outside the church it is not my business to judge. but surely it is your business to judge those who are inside the church – God alone can judge those who are outside. It is your plain duty to ‘put away from yourselves that wicked person’. 1 Corinthians 5:9 Phillips NT

So now let anyone who claims to be a Christian do as the scriptures say and judge ourselves and use the standard we have applied to others. I shall address a few of the common accusations about prophethood made against Muslims.

(Accusation 1) Islam has to be false because Muhammed claimed to be a prophet and was a Gentile and not a Jew.

(Reply) According to the Old Testament there were many Gentile prophets but only seven are mentioned by name in the Talmud (Baba Bathra 15b), However the story of baalim and Job are two of many stories in the Bible about Gentile prophets.

(Accusation 2) Islam says there was 124,000 prophets sent to all the peoples of the world, is this not a ridiculous number; and how can it be said that all the gentiles were sent prophets? Certainly this proves it is false.

(Reply) First of all the Jews believe there were many many prophets– In fact, the Talmud (Megilah 14a) says that there were twice as many prophets as there were Israelites who left Egypt during the exodus which would place the number at at least 1.2 million prophets. The Bible also records prophets being sent to the gentiles such as when Jonah was sent to the people of Nineveh. The Jewish Sages also believed that the torah had been given to all the people in the world but only Israel accepted it when God forced them to by holding a mountain over their heads (Talmud Sabbat 88a)

Let us therefore use a justice standard in all things whether we are Muslim Christian or Jew.

“O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe Allah, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, Allah takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then Allah is fully Cognizant of everything you do.” Quran 4:135