“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”(Isaiah 9:6)
Many Christians quote Isaiah 9:6 not only in their efforts to show the divinity of Jesus but also that he is part of a triune godhead. Let us examine , whether Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy for Jesus or Hezekiah
“..the government shall be upon his shoulder…”
Jesus was never a king on Earth, however Hezekiah was in fact twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years.
“…his name shall be called…Mighty God”
Jesus was never called “Mighty God” while Hezekiah in facts means “Tetragrammaton Mighty God”
Now many Christians may claim that this is not conclusive proof to associate the prophecy of Isaiah with Hezekiah. Fine, I will agree. But if you still believe this prophecy refers to Jesus, then the onus is on you to show me :
(1)how it applies to Jesus
(2) and more importantly how it conveys the divinity of Jesus.
I am willing to concede the first point more easily than the second.
June 14, 2009 at 8:46 pm
No Ibnsaad, the onus is on you to show how Hezekiah is also a:
MIGHTY GOD
EVERLASTING FATHER
who was GIVEN to us of God
and when you’re done with Isaiah 9:6, do read Isaiah 9:7 and continue to tell us how Hezekiah rules for eternity.
Let the text speak, because I don’t feel I am any longer needed in these discussions.
May the Lord show us all the truth as we submit our lives to His awesome glory.
Roy Wahab
OUT
June 15, 2009 at 4:09 am
Assalamu’alaikum,
Roy Wahab. How are you? We meet again. Putting aside formalities, is the verse in question about Hezekiah or Jesus? According to many ancient Rabbinic writings the verse is in reference to Hezekiah and not some god-man whose name will be Jesus or Yeshua. This notion is mentioned in the Mesoretic Text by the Jewish Publication Society,
“There are good reasons to apply the name to Hezekiah, since this is one of those outstanding texts of Isaiah that speak in exalted and royal terms both of Israel’s kings and the coming human Messiah. The hope of Israel was resting on the permanence of David’s dynasty. The symbolic name given to the royal child signified more than a continuation of the dynasty. It meant a decisive intervention by God whose own greatness would become manifest in his dealings with and blessings upon Hezekiah.”
You’re asking that if it is about Hezekiah then how do you account for the next verse which speaks of “eternity”. Rabbi Rashi in his commentary says,
“from now and to eternity: The eternity of Hezekiah, viz. all his days. And so we find that Hannah said concerning Samuel (I Sam. 1:22): “and abide there forever.” And, in order to refute those who disagree [i.e., the Christians, who claim that this (Prince of Peace) is their deity], we can refute them [by asking], What is the meaning of: “from now” ? Is it not so that the “deity” did not come until after five hundred years and more?”
I do not believe you have any strong case for using Isaiah 9:6 for Jesus much less to use it as declaration of his alleged divinity Roy Wahab. In fact, even if we were to accept for the sake of argument that the verse i about Jesus and renederd in the conventional Christian way it still does not amount to the deification of Jesus. You may query,”What about the reference to El-Gibbur which means Mighty God?”
Let’s read Ezekiel 32:21 together,
ידברו לו אלי גבורים מתוך שאול את עזריו ירדו שכבו הערלים חללי חרב׃
“The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, ‘They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’”
The words strong among the mighty refers to the Hebrew text which says “elei gibburim” which is the plural form for its base el-gibbur. How man Gods are there exactly?
I can go on and on and argue from several different angles all of which spell certain doom for the standard Christian proposition. If you are interested you most welcome to read a critical analysis of the verse at the following link,
http://unveiling-christianity.com/2008/10/25/a-study-of-isaiah-96/
June 14, 2009 at 9:30 pm
NOTE: “Tetragrammaton Mighty God” is one possible meaning of the name Hezekiah. Google it.
June 14, 2009 at 10:04 pm
roy wahab Says:
June 14, 2009 at 5:02 am
Suppose you were right CS, then would someone please tell me: WHO is this WONDERFUL COUNSELOR, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE? I’ll give you a clue: there is no end to the increase of his government, he was preincarnate, His government and peace will never end — (i.e. still today) He reigns on David’s throne with justice and righteousness – and all this by the zeal of God. I would be riveted to find out both who YOU God attributes these amazing titles, and who Ibnsaad believes deserves these titles if not Jesus.
Let the text speak.
All this taken from Isaiah 9:6
“Unto us a son is GIVEN…”
Roy Wahab
LETS EXAMINE THE VERSE TO SEE IF DIVINITY IS EVEN PRESENT IN THIS SECTION
WONDERFUL-HAS NO CONNOTATION OF DIVINITY IS USED OF WORKS AND OBJECTS IN THE OT
COUNSELOR- USED OF MEN SUCH AS DAVID’S COUNSELOR
MIGHTY GOD- MORTAL MEN ARE CALLED MIGHTY GODS (ELEI GIBORIM)Eze 32:21
EVERLASTING FATHER- A BAD TRANSLATION WHAT IT SHOULD READ IS “FATHER(AUTHOR) OF THE AGE TO COME” (EVEN FROM A TRINITARIAN STANDPOINT JESUS BEING CALLED THE FATHER IS PROBLEMATIC AS THE NICENE FORMULA MAKES EACH PERSON OF GOD DISTINCT BUT ALL GOD THEREFORE THE SON COULD NOT BE THE FATHER BUT BOTH THE FATHER AND SON ARE GOD)EVEN JEROME IN HIS VULGATE HOLD THAT IT IS FATHER OF THE COMING AGE.
PRINCE OF PEACE- MEANS A LEADER WHO WILL BRING PEACE AND PROSPERITY.
WE MAY ARGUE OVER WHO THIS IS, HOWEVER THERE IS NOTHING TO SHOW WHO EVER THIS PERSON IS, THAT THEY ARE DIVINE OR GOD ALMIGHTY ALLAH.
June 14, 2009 at 10:07 pm
so who is it?
June 14, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Don’t know, but whoever it is, he is surely not divine. :p
June 14, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Divine as in Capital G God, and not small g god
June 15, 2009 at 12:41 am
we need to stop thinking “God” when we come across the Hebrew word Elohim or El. Those words mean power and authority and these are two attributes that ALLAH has. It is not a name it is a description. God is the Most mighty and the Most merciful yet, these describe his attributes. I can be mighty and merciful but I am not God. This is the same with elohim, I can be an Elohim (descriptive) but not the THE ELOHIM.
June 15, 2009 at 12:54 am
All the Hebrew verbs talk about an action already taken place and say
1.)Child HAS been born
2.)A son HAS been given
3.)Government(authority) Has been placed on his shoulders
These are ALL past events at the time Isaiah wrote these words almost 500yrs before Jesus. ACCORDING TO THE HEBREW MASORAH THERE IS NO ROOM FOR THE ARGUMENT THAT THERE IS A DIVINE MESSIAH FIGURE.
June 15, 2009 at 12:38 am
Rashi claims it is Hezekiah
However if this verse is indeed about Jesus this does not prove divinity.
June 16, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Where is everyone lol. This thread die?